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Everyone can see units as soon as they are on the board.

Only allies can see attacks (including air attacks).

So your enemy can see your tanks, but he can't see what they are going to do.

Correct.

There was a brief period of time where they couldn't see the units, but that has since disappeared.

It's kind of strange in a way, no?  It seems to encourage waiting until the last possible moment to lay out your moves so your enemies don't get any extra advantage.

I was thinking the same thing.

Example:  If you build a construction truck early in the day (assuming your enemy sees it), he can launch a jet attack and kill it.  If you were to wait until right before the update cycle, it have a better chance at survival.

I'd say this is not a good thing, assuming I am understanding the mechanics correctly.

The can of worms re-opens.... (hides under rock).

You could take this same thing and use it to your advantage.

Say, create a vulnerable truck early in the day, then create a powerful army surrounding the truck right before the daily cycle to demolish any air attacks targeted on the truck.

True.  But I'd rather just play the game and not have to feel pressured to play the update schedule as if I was trying to out bid someone on Ebay at the last possible second.

Making units invisible created all sorts of new problems that were very detrimental to the game.

In the end, your strategy simply needs to account for the fact that another player may make changes after you.

I understand.  I was not advocating invisible units.  I was thinking more along the lines of having it so your enemies only see a snapshot of your empire as it was at update time, not your 'real time' changes.  This would eliminate the advantage of logging in late.

Not sure if that fits in with your designs, just offering feedback.

Sorry, I should have clarified!  "Invisible units" refers to units not being visible on the day they're created.  Once a Cycle passed, they were visible to everyone.

So, the snapshot would essentially be the same thing.

I guess this wouldnt be such a big deal if the cycle ran at a different time, or was set to run at 4am within each time zone (instead of 4am CST, 3am MST, 2am PST).  It's much more difficult for me to wait around until 5am here in NYC than it is for an enemy in Los Angeles (or Honolulu!) to wait until 2am or even earlier.

I don't know, i'm just talking off the top of my head.  It just seems to be distinctly disadvantageous to those who live east vs those who live west.  i guess I could just start waking up 2 hrs early to set my moves at 4:59 am....

Detrimental to the game or just detrimental to those who can play close to the update cycle? 

If you wait to til the last minute to do your turn you:
1)  Get to see what everyone else built that day, and;
2)  Get to hide what you are building from those who do their turn earlier in the day.

'Invisible' units are irrelevant to the player who does their turn early in the day because, to them, units built that day are 'invisible' by virtue of the fact no one has built anything yet.


I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea of a turn based game where.. if you wait long enough you get to see part of someone else's turn, and if you don't wait long enough.. you don't.  It's kind of like playing poker.. but some people get to peek at your cards and some don't.  Is that really a good thing?

And please understand I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm really impressed by the game as a whole.  I'm having fun and that's all that matters.  Just this one little thing is not making sense to me at all.

There are quite a few anti-strategic methods you can use. One of my most favorite, and if not the most effective thing I have discovered in this game, is a two-stage system.

Instead of using one group of units to attack, you use two. The front line do NOT move and simply defend. The back line advances and becomes the front line next day. Repeat with the new back line. This does;

1) If your enemy is someone who waits until the last moment, this works to your advantage IF;
1a) during the daily cycle, countries are randomly selected to move. Your enemy goes first and get demolished by the front line who have a slight defensive advantage. You go second and your back line moves forward practically uncontested.
1b) You go first, your back line advances and may die or not. Your enemy then move his units. He expects to be attacking your front line (which is now the back line!) and may have his attacks failing due to your new line of units defending.

2) If your enemy is someone who does not care about the daily cycle and just create his units and attack routes at any given time he is able to log on, this works to your advantage IF;
2a) You choose to wait until the last minute, create units in the "back line" and use them to attack, while using old units as a front line. The front line do not attack and defend. You end up going first, your back line advances and clash. Any air attacks he make will most likely be shot at by your new front line, since the attack paths likely are targeting your now back line.
2b) He ends up going first, luckily for you, your freshly created units is a surprise to him and he gets demolished. Your units then advance almost uncontested. You will, however, lose your front line.

You can even make it perfect by creating three or four lines of defense, using only 1-3 lines to advance and 1-3 lines to defend.


Don't forget, it's largely balanced by having countries randomly selected to go first or second or fifth or so on. Certain methods work best if you go first, others work best if you go second.

What would you recommend, if anything, to replace the daily cycles? Having it at different times is moot, as people live around the globe. A certain time works best for you, but not for me, while a different certain time works best for me, but not for you.

Can your units move through your other units?  My units seem to stop if they try to move through units already (or about?) to move.

You have to move around the units... or use a comb (alternate columns of front line / back line units).

OH?! This might explain why sometimes my units seem to just randomly not move. Do friendly military units block movement of one's own forces?

Yes, units will automatically stop if there is ANY unit, your own, ally, or enemy, in its attack path. (If the unit kills the enemy unit, it keep going on the attack path)

To be sure every unit gets a chance to move, make sure there will not be a unit on its path.
Tips:
1) Units move in the order you set attacks. So you set a path for Unit A, then B, then C. the A will move first, then B, then C.
So if they are lined up as ABC. you move A first, then B, then C.
lined up as BCA? B, C, then A.
etc.

I feel I'm not being very clear, I communicate better with pictures and videos. Maybe I'll come up with a graphical demonstration later.

In one sense, you're right.  It isn't fair to people who can't log in late.  I tried the "invisible for a day" solution and it just caused all kinds of problems.

For example, a country lands, builds a base, builds turrets, and builds all sorts of new units.  An enemy sees the landing, so he targets the truck.  It's impossible to target anything else, so (a) your air attacks will probably be shot down by units you can't see, and (b) you are just firing at a spot they may be at even though you don't know if you'll be going first or second.  Basically, it becomes impossible to stop someone from landing and spreading like wildfire.

It frustrates me that there's a time advantage, but I haven't thought of a solution for it that that always keeps the game enjoyable.  If anyone has an idea, I'm definitely open to suggestions.

One idea is to handle "build" actions as part of the update.  They would not occur in real time.

It could slow the game down in terms of not being able to build a unit and issue an attack order in the same day.  There may be other downsides too.

But it would eliminate the 'time advantage' and the 'I just landed and built a ton of stuff in your backyard and spread like wildfire' advantage you mentioned above.  Well, this depends on if you process attacks before build orders.  I would say do attack before build if you wanted to prevent the land-and-spread-like-wildfire scenario.  (And I'm sure you realize the early bird player is currently affected by the wildfire scenario.)

Basically what you'd see at the beginning of the day is what is there when you attack, no matter what time of day you play.


Like is said, I'm not sure if this is desirable for the overall game.. just an idea.  I tend to think of this as more of a turn-based game than a real time game, because there is an update cycle.

I'll have to give that idea some thought.

I also had an idea last night.  It occurred to me that I placed the Daily Cycle at 4:00am so that it would run when most people aren't using the site.  But, since most players will be in the U.S., it does give an advantage to players who can be up at that hour (especially on the west coast).  Moving the Cycle to another part of the day (e.g. 9:00am, 12:00pm, 5:00pm, or 10:00pm) might eliminate that advantage.

I understand now how it works, I think. The problem is in how perpetual attacks work. For an example of this, look at my country on Fulgur (the USA map) -- I am the middle top yellow player out of International Falls, Minnesota. I have units perpetual attacking E, SE, S, SW, and W. I built land bases as I expanded to create more units to send E, S, and W. Since units move more cells in a NSEW direction and you gain movement on creation and by splitting, some newer units headed those cardinal directions caught up with some of the SE and SW units. The result was that sometimes a SE unit would be in the way of a E unit, or vice versa, (which is hard to see if you do not reset all attacks every turn) even though all units were going to end on different cells (which is relatively easy to see).

Perhaps highlight an attack line or conflicting cell if present move orders might potentially yield a blocked path?

Could build (and subsequent move and attack) orders be incorporated into the update? So, like, ghost units would be put on the map when you "created" them and you could move and set attacks for them as now, but they would not actually be built until your turn in the update and that action in your turn sequence? For fairness, I think if the building unit is destroyed before it has a chance to build, you should be refunded for the cost of the build orders which were not completed.

The problem I see with that is then you have a 50:50 chance of landing. If the attacker goes first in the turn sequence, then all his stuff gets built and can fight. If the defender goes first then his one measly air strike to kill a single CT goes off and you have built nothing.

I think it would be more fair to have the invisible units thing because you have a week or more to air strike incoming transports with CTs, put up coastal turrets, set tanks to patrol the potential landing site, etc. If they land with a live CT after a daily update cycle, they deserve to have built their stuff on your coast.

But moving the daily cycle looks the map if you move that to the middle of the day you effect the rest of us that play a normal hours.  It really doesn't effect the game all that much to have a time advantage you can compensate for it like any other strategy one may use.

Just my 2 cents.

I really like the create lock out idea.  that slows down expansion and makes days 1 and 2 of a new map kind of ehh, but really it sounds like one of the most sound solutions to the problem of latetimers.  The con to that is that a person defending would be harder pressed to turn the tides back in their favor.  an attacker would obviously be able to move his units at will whereas a defender who just built units this turn to defend can go and preemptive strike etc.

This was already implemented for a while and universally hated among the players. 

Take a look in the forms and such for "invisible" units.  There you will see the talk of this technique tried (and failed).

Personally, I liked the idea, but in actuality I got smashed because I had gotten used to the other way, I did not adjust my strategy to handle it well.

Simple solution: Don't let units attack the turn they're created.

You could go one step further and not let them defend when they're created, but I'm not sure that's necessary.

I think the simplest solution is to leave the game as it is in this regard. Maybe there is some unfairness to this, but it is not bad, all things considered.

Another option might be to slightly randomize the time the daily update happens (maybe up to 3 hours off stated?), that way it discourages people from waiting until the last hour to make their moves?

Letting people know their place in the random player turn order is also an interesting idea... From what Overlord Johnny has said so far, I realize this would be a complicated change in the programming (deciding ahead of time what the order will be, saving it, displaying it somewhere, and using it during the update cycle) in addition to being a HUGE change to how the game is played. I am not sure it would be a good change, but it would certainly be interesting and different.

I do not like the listing of turn order.  This game can already be a bit mathematical and taking away another random or unknown element in my opinion make it less interesting.

In regards to the last post about random update time (to 3 hours or so) sounds pretty good.  It would again add a little bit of unknown to the game.

The invisible new units ruined the game for me.

Everybody claimed how unfair it was to create units at the very end of the cycle.  However, with my strategy I always found it advantageous to set attacks early in the morning, many times that first strike opportunity made a huge difference.

Now with the random turn order all of that has been eliminated.  Do I like it? No.  But it's something I can live with and it keeps the game balanced.

Well, the main issue I've faced is one of air attacks, not land-based combat.  If I'm located on the east coast and have to set my moves by midnight EST, any opponents who are located west of me have a distinct advantage that is completely unrelated to game strategy in targeting my units with air attacks.  Doesn't matter if I try a two-front approach or combing or whatever.... if they can slam with 50 jets, my units that I worked on for a loooooong time are toast.

Now THAT makes the game un-fun.  :(

Any solution to this would be most appreciated.  I kind of like the idea of a varying run time for each cycle.  Maybe it shifts two or three hours each day so that *everyone* is at a disadvantage at some point during the week? (ie, run time is at 5 am, then 3 am, then midnight, etc etc).

Going back to the poll I posted about moving the processing time up, I was considering the idea of moving the Daily Cycle to 10:00pm Central time instead.  That would make the range 8:00pm to 11:00pm for most people playing the game and give many more people the same opportunity.

Just out of curiosity, what are some of the reasons people voted against moving the Cycle?

Quite frankly, any time change does nothing. Some players benefit from the 4am central cycle while others have a "disadvantage." Different players would benefit from a 10pm cycle while others have a disadvantage. The same can be said for any time of day or night.

Personally it makes no difference to me and am okay with current time or new time, I just see no point to it and solve nothing except place different players of the same amount with the burden.

I don't know how feasible this might be, but have worlds do their cycles at different times? i.e. anklyo does midnight, cerato does 3am, drypto does 6am, and so on.

10pm cycle puts the update right into the middle of my time to play the game. i work from 8am to 7pm every day, so when you run the update from 10 to 1130, i won't be able to do anything.

why not put it at 2am central, when most people are asleep across the US?

It's at 4am central right now.  2am would be an even bigger problem for people on the east coast.

most people are asleep at both times. the 2am update allows early risers on the east coast to check their nation first thing in the morning.

but it hoses people on the west coast, since the update is late at night when some people are trying to check their nation.

i say just leave it be.

A change in update schedule won't solve the problem.  Someone will always be at an advantage/disadvantage no matter when you do it.

I think the advantage is significant enough to warrant further consideration.  People actually take note of which players make 'late in the cycle' moves.  The fact that people even bother to '3:50 AM it' in the first place speaks to the significance of the advantage.

Logging in 'late' allows you to see what other people built as well as 'hide' what you decided to build (and do the various 'tricks' like build a turret at the last minute to bait people into wasting air power, building a lvl 9 tank on a base, etc.)


I don't know if there is an easy fix, but I think we should keep mulling it over and offer any useful suggestions we have to Johnny.

Well the only 'real' solution is activate a total 'fog-of-war' system, but that's a much bigger issue than anything else at this point.

no matter what, people are going to log in right before update to try to work the system. that's it their prerogative, and your only hope is to band against those people that are upsetting your domination of them.

My point is that there should not be a way to "work the system".  It sounds like the design intent of the game is such that players should just have to worry about playing the game.. and not playing the clock or working the system.

"Unlike most online games, however, Global Triumph is not real-time.  Log in, build up, set your attacks.  Everything's processed once a day, which also means you don't have to quit school or your job to play."

I really like the vision described in the above paragraph.  However, the part of the game we are discussing runs counter to what is described paragraph.  Building is real time and is visible real time.  While you don't *have* to quit your job to play the game.. the game certainly favors the 3:50 am player.

So what do we do?  If it's too hard or time consuming to fix, I can totally understand that.  I'm just trying to think of ideas/suggestions that might improve the situation.

there really is nothing that can be done. making units invis for the day of creation gives an attacker complete surprise to route an opponent, especially with transport/contruck.

johnny doesn't lie in the game's description. it isn't a RTS. the attacks are processed once a day, randomly. people from all over the planet play, so adjusting the time is going to screw someone. there are people that have jobs at night that get to log on right before update, and there are people that just stay up that late or are insomniacs. these things won't change, and no matter what time is the update time, people are going to try to use everything they can to their advantage.

the attacks are still processed randomly, so it doesn't matter in the long run.

I don't believe nothing can be done.

You could make Build actions part of the update versus having them be real time.  You could also make them occur *after* the attack phase of the update.  This way the "world" everyone sees for the entire day is the same and what you see on the board is what you can attack.

Units that are built do nothing during the update in which they are built.  They can move/attack the next day.  This way there are no magical invisible units attacking out of nowhere.

This would change the game and force players to anticipate what they'd need 1 day in advance.  But that's not necessarily a bad thing.  Some board games operate like that. 


Just one idea.

it's a possibility. johnny will have to look into it, and since this is still the beta phase, it won't cause much harm.

what about just setting it so that units can't attack upon their creation can create them and move them to a near-location like you can now, but they are still getting their shit in order before deployment.

yeah, people could stage a defense, but it will force people to be strategic in the offensive and defensive parts of the game.

I like this idea a lot.  I got hosed myself by people "playing the clock".  If we consider GT to be like a board game, everyone is on equal footing.  It would be great if people didn't play the clock but some do and always will.

I don't know about all of you but I can't stay up into the middle of the night- I get up around 5 a.m. everyday so I have to do my turns much earlier.  I have realized this is a disadvantage to me but keeping my job is better than gaining upper hand in GT :)

If the unit creation/build was done as part of turn processing it would be as suggested: The map you see is the one you are playing against.  After the turn cycle runs you would see new units/buildings and could then play your turn accordingly based on what you see- anything new wouldn't show up until the next build /turn cycle.

I really like this idea a lot.

I am no programmer but my "ideal" would go as follows:

1) log in to GT: survey the landscape.  Plot and strategize- look at enemies positions/units

2) Make moves: move units, issue attack orders

3) Based on moves/attacks made: I decide what units to purchase

4) End turn.

5) At 4 a.m. the computer cycles the turn- attacks are all made and resolved and THEN all players new units/buildings appear on the map

Go back to 1.

This completely eliminates the time advantage for everyone and makes it fair across the board, IMO

This would also require that new units (still invisible to enemies) not be able to fight back.  Otherwise, an enemy could create a line of defense against land, sea, and air attacks that would be completely unseen.

This was a major issue during the Great Invisibility Debacle of March 2010.

I like the idea of being able to build troops, and not have them until the following turn.  I wouldn't mind setting up a system that works like this.

Any troops created the first turn of your existence, (ie the first turn on the server) are created immediately.  Any troops, bases, defenses, etc. created afterward are created during the turn cycle and CANNOT act (defensively or offensively) during the turn cycle.  If by any chance that the truck creating the base or defensive structure is destroyed during the turn cycle, the money is refunded.  Unit created from a destroyed base are deployed to the closest base to the destroyed base.  For game play purposes they would be created during the turn process, and displayed at the turn change as units adjacent to the base, ignoring the stacking limits until they are deployed.

Now if, for example, someone built 10 stacks of Strength 9 Infantry, it would show one very exceptionally (one stack of 90) large stack to everyone looking at it.  If that person doesn't log in to deploy those 10 stacks, 9 of them would be refunded, as you cannot stack troops that high.

I think that would really harm gameplay.  Strategy would be destroyed if deployment could just be changed on you.

Also, stacking is simply impossible.  The game's structure only supports one unit per sector.  That will likely change in a 2.0 version, but it's definitely not doable in this one.

This is already a problem in the game.  I fight against 'invisible' units all the time.

I'm in a heated battle in one of my games and all of my opponents play later than I do.. as such I'm constantly battling "invisible" units (invisible by virtue of the fact I don't see them, but when it matters they are indeed present).  Not only that, my opponents get free moves.  They can build units AND move them forward without worry of attack until the next day.  Ex:  When I see their trucks for the first time, they are 8 squares from their base.  When they see mine, they are 4 squares away from my base.


"This would also require that new units (still invisible to enemies) not be able to fight back"

Right.  IMO having to plan 1 turn in advance is okay if it eliminates the 3:50 am advantage.  Choosing which units to buy becomes a more interesting decision.  It could play out really well, we won't know without trying it.  Right now the 3:50 am player does not have to make any guesses or anticipate the opponents move very much.  They already know what the other guy bought.

Personally I find this to be the biggest downfall to playing this game.  How to fix it?  I'm not sure but there has to be a better way.

Yeah, I'm dredging this back up. No answer was found then, but the issue was ignored rather than solved and it did not go away.

Personally, at this point with another 2 maps of experience under my belt, I'd vote for "invisible" units again -- i.e. no one sees newly built units instead of only people who play earlier in the day.